Site AdminPosts: 1209Location: UitgeestJoined: 27th Dec, 2006
The Five Years box is important in that it (finally) replaces the first titles of the 1999 EMI remasters as "current stock". These EMI remasters aren't regarded highly concerning sound quality. For many, the Rykodisc remasters from the early 90s have not aged well either, meaning that for a lot of people the original RCA CDs still are the preferred editions if it comes to sound quality.
The question is: do the new 2015 remasters finally surpass the 30-year old RCA titles? Leave your thoughts and reviews in this thread!
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ruud
Posted: 29th Sep 2015, 11:42 am
Site AdminPosts: 1209Location: UitgeestJoined: 27th Dec, 2006
I have only been able to listen to the Re:Call CD yet and I'm pleasantly surprised by what I heard. In particular, the single versions and mixes seem to be authentic.
- All The Madmen has a small dropout at 1.14 ("Then ask me how I feel") that's present on the original single. - Round And Round is the original single version that was reissued on Bowie Rare but replaced with a duller and IMO inferior mix on the Sound + Vision Ryko box and later releases.
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shooky
Posted: 29th Sep 2015, 12:58 pm
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
as Re:Call will be the main draw of this set for many, here are my observations on this predictably mixed bag. title in green denotes the CD debut of this track/edit/version.
Disc I.
1. Space Oddity (UK mono single edit) a bad start. this sounds very little like the actual Philips single. the authentic single is deliberately fattened up with compression to sound good on the radio. whatever source they found, it's neither accurate nor preferable. it's shrill and in poor shape.
2. Wild-Eyed Boy From Freecloud (UK mono single version) slightly better but again not authentic in terms of dynamics or sonics. both of these tracks have a bit of a "transistor radio" sound to them.
3. Ragazzo Solo Ragazza Sola (stereo single version) this was originally released in mono and the stereo mix did not appear until 2009's 40th anniversary edition of David Bowie/Space Oddity. this uses the same stereo master but shortens the fade to match the single length. great sound, but not authentic. (thanks colin for confirming the original single was indeed mono.)
4. The Prettiest Star (original mono single version) this is closer in sound to the Ryko Sound + Vision master than the EMI SO40. smoother and warmer than either, it's the best this has sounded on digital IMO. i don't have an original single to compare it to however.
5. Conversation Piece (original mono single version) appears to use the same source as the Rykodisc version but "fattened up" and less bright. i consider this the best sounding version on digital to date, with a similar disclaimer to tracks 3 and 4.
6/7. Memory Of A Free Festival Pts 1 & 2 (original stereo single version) i like how these sound in comparison to the Rykodisc versions, again probably the best digital versions to date, and again i don't have an original single to compare with. the transition at the end of part 1 appears to have been cleaned up, with a click removed.
8. All The Madmen (US promo single edit) a bit of a surprise to find this is the authentic edit, although the sound is quite unlike the genuine article. probably a heavily EQd needledrop, it's really quite harsh sounding. a CD debut but hard to recommend.
9. Janine (US promo mono version) as the b-side to the above, this shares the same sonic characteristics. i'm all but certain it's a fold down of the stereo but the difference in EQ is so marked, it's hard to tell. again, a CD debut but hardly an essential addition.
10. Holy Holy (original mono single version) another CD debut and probably the most welcome. here's one that i have an original single of and i'm happy to report that while i expect it's a needledrop, it sounds as it should, if perhaps a little too bright.
11/12. Moonage Daydream/Hang On To Yourself (Arnold Corns versions) seem to be from the same source as ZS30 but with the spoken intro reinstated on Moonage Daydream and a glitch repaired. both are quite harsh and not really indicative of the sound of the original singles.
Disc II.
1. Changes (UK mono single) i'm all but certain this is a fold-down of the new stereo master found on Hunky Dory. the reason is that the two clicks inherent to the line "time was running wild" are missing just as they are from the new Hunky Dory. besides that it's essentially the same as the actual single, reinforcing my belief that it is a fold-down of the stereo and not a dedicated mix.
2. Andy Warhol (mono single edit) this is the edit without the full intro. the Re:Call booklet pictures the UK single label, but Andy Warhol is the full-length album version on the UK single. the edit is in stereo on the US single. only the yellow label radio promo has the mono, which is a fold-down. either way, i'd say this is a mistake and a waste of disc space.
3. Starman (loud mix) similar to but brighter than and not as pleasing as the version on NHC (3 disc version for best sound).
4. John I'm Only Dancing (original version) although the correct mix, this doesn't really sound much like the actual single. seems to use the ZS30 source but less bright and with the channels flipped back.
5. The Jean Genie (single mix) less compressed than the AS30 version but again not really close to the actual single sound.
6. Drive-in Saturday (german single edit) a real waste of time. this is the AS40 album version master faded early, nothing more.
7. Round And Round (original b-side mix) finally the correct mix as originally released finds its way to digital. the bad news is that it's mastered much brighter than the actual single and would have benefited from having the top end tamed.
8. John I'm Only Dancing (sax version) less compressed and bright than the AS40 master and pretty close to the version on early ChangesOneBowie vinyl.
9. Time (single edit) pretty good although an inherent noise has been edited out and an unfortunate bump/drop out added in the near silence before "You are not a victim". full dynamics as per the original single unlike the compressed master on AS30.
10. Amsterdam (original mix) another success, this is the original mix as released and not Ryko's alternate version. very close in sound to the actual single.
11. Holy Holy (Spiders version) appears to be the same source as ZS30 but with the channels flipped back, balanced and the top end tamed.
12. Velvet Goldmine nicely EQd but this is oddly compressed unlike every earlier version.
Last edited by shooky on 30th Sep 2015, 10:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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SPG
Posted: 29th Sep 2015, 3:14 pm
Posts: 74Joined: 3rd Aug, 2015
RCA cd's are still better, I can't compare the vinyl soz. I wanted Holy Holy on cd and that is really all I got, quite dissapointing for £100 notes, PinUps radio helped a bit to sweeten the pill as did the ATM edit but one can't help but feel a bit ripped at the end of the day. Ken Scott mix. why? I just don't see the point myself.
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ruud
Posted: 29th Sep 2015, 4:20 pm
Site AdminPosts: 1209Location: UitgeestJoined: 27th Dec, 2006
Matt, for All The Madmen and Holy Holy you rightly note that they do not match the original singles. To the defense of Ray Staff I would add that if these would have been included in their original form they would have sounded pretty "off" and not have mixed well with the rest. They were bass heavy, a bit muddy and probably EQed for AM? For me an All The Madmen without the wow was new BTW; all copies I heard were pressed off centre.
I concur with the first two tracks sounding not as good as they sound. Transistor-like describes them pretty well. What kind of masters would they have used to start with? The Space Oddity album in this set too has its rough spots.
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bab
Posted: 29th Sep 2015, 6:24 pm
Posts: 31Joined: 28th Mar, 2008
For those who care about these kinds of things, here are the dynamic range values for "Space Oddity" from the Five Years boxed set, compared to the 40th Anniversary release and the standard Rykodisc release.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed folder: D:\Multimedia\David Bowie\Space Oddity [Five Years Boxed Set, 2015]\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR10 -0.01 dB -12.75 dB 01. Space Oddity.wav DR10 -1.01 dB -13.39 dB 02. Unwashed And Somewhat Slightly Dazed.wav DR10 -2.86 dB -14.81 dB 03. Letter To Hermione.wav DR11 -0.54 dB -14.09 dB 04. Cygnet Committee.wav DR12 -0.01 dB -15.05 dB 05. Janine.wav DR10 -0.52 dB -14.78 dB 06. An Occasional Dream.wav DR10 -0.61 dB -14.86 dB 07. Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud.wav DR11 -1.62 dB -15.37 dB 08. God Knows I'm Good.wav DR10 -0.01 dB -13.93 dB 09. Memory Of A Free Festival.wav ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -0.03 dB -14.93 dB 01. Space Oddity.wav DR11 -0.07 dB -13.04 dB 02. Unwashed And Somewhat Slightly Dazed.wav DR12 -4.42 dB -18.79 dB 03. Letter To Hermione.wav DR13 -0.07 dB -14.93 dB 04. Cygnet Committee.wav DR12 -0.08 dB -15.62 dB 05. Janine.wav DR10 -2.92 dB -17.16 dB 06. An Occasional Dream.wav DR10 -0.08 dB -14.82 dB 07. Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud.wav DR12 -1.87 dB -16.57 dB 08. God Knows I'm Good.wav DR12 -0.25 dB -16.16 dB 09. Memory Of A Free Festival.wav ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 over -14.97 dB 01. Space Oddity.wav DR11 over -13.32 dB 02. Unwashed And Somewhat Slightly Dazed.wav DR13 -0.00 dB -17.10 dB 03. Don't Sit Down.wav DR12 -4.20 dB -18.68 dB 04. Letter To Hermione.wav DR13 over -15.50 dB 05. Cygnet Committee.wav DR12 over -15.48 dB 06. Janine.wav DR12 -1.49 dB -17.62 dB 07. An Occasional Dream.wav DR11 -0.54 dB -16.48 dB 08. Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud.wav DR12 -0.95 dB -16.40 dB 09. God Knows I'm Good.wav DR12 -0.00 dB -15.71 dB 10. Memory Of A Free Festival.wav DR12 -2.91 dB -17.12 dB 11. Conversation Piece (B-side of 'Prettiest Star' - 1970).wav DR11 -0.00 dB -15.02 dB 12. Memory Of A Free Festival Part 1 (Single Version - 1970).wav DR10 over -11.89 dB 13. Memory Of A Free Festival Part 2 (Single Version - 1970).wav ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... and here they are for "The Man Who Sold the World" from the Five Years boxed set and the Ryko AU20.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed folder: D:\Multimedia\David Bowie\The Man Who Sold the World [Five Years Boxed Set, 2015]\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -0.52 dB -13.79 dB 01. The Width of a Circle.wav DR10 -0.33 dB -13.84 dB 02. All the Madmen.wav DR10 -0.51 dB -12.77 dB 03. Black Country Rock.wav DR11 -3.56 dB -17.78 dB 04. After All.wav DR11 -0.51 dB -14.40 dB 05. Running Gun Blues.wav DR10 -0.51 dB -12.50 dB 06. Saviour Machine.wav DR11 -0.51 dB -12.87 dB 07. She Shook Me Cold.wav DR11 -0.53 dB -13.42 dB 08. The Man Who Sold the World.wav DR11 -0.51 dB -14.76 dB 09. The Supermen.wav ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed folder: D:\Multimedia\David Bowie\The Man Who Sold The World [Rykodisc, AU20, 1990]\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -0.10 dB -14.20 dB 01 - Width Of A Circle.wav DR10 -0.10 dB -12.54 dB 02 - All The Madmen.wav DR11 -0.10 dB -12.54 dB 03 - Black Country Rock.wav DR11 -2.05 dB -16.19 dB 04 - After All.wav DR11 -0.10 dB -13.04 dB 05 - Running Gun Blues.wav DR10 -0.10 dB -12.28 dB 06 - Saviour Machine.wav DR11 -0.10 dB -12.18 dB 07 - She Shook Me Cold.wav DR11 -0.10 dB -12.90 dB 08 - The Man Who Sold The World.wav DR9 -0.10 dB -12.01 dB 09 - The Supermen.wav DR13 -0.79 dB -16.05 dB 10 - Lightning Frightening (Previously unreleased track - 1970).wav DR10 -0.75 dB -12.85 dB 11 - Holy Holy (Single A-side - 1970).wav DR12 -0.10 dB -13.37 dB 12 - Moonage Daydream (Released as Arnold Corns - 1971).wav DR11 -0.10 dB -13.18 dB 13 - Hang Onto Yourself (Released as Arnold Corns - 1971).wav ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm reading all these comments about the 'Five Years' box. Surely one can only compare them with the vinyl originals. These cuts would have been how Bowie heard the tracks transfered from tape onto lacquer and approved/ was happy with. Of course over time, with new technology, they can be bastardised and made to be shadows of their former selves - tweeked and improved. All the creases and imperfections ironed out. As a creative person I love the mistakes and fault lines - they have a unique personality all of their own. 'All the Madmen' US single sounds how it should. I haven't heard the 5 years box set version. If it doesn't match the original single then it's wrong. Needle drop will be the closest possible reproduction I imagine. I realise everyone can't own the original US stock copy but the track is available in its complete form on thousands of RCA dynaflex pressings of TMWSTW for a fraction of the price of this overblown catastrophe. I bought all the anniversary pressings simply because they offered unreleased material. The 'Station to Station' release with the nassau show was priceless. To hear such a high quality version of something I'd only known as a shoddy bootleg was a dream come true. This week i received Robin Mayhew's Hammersmith. It's perfection. The tampered with official release of the show is an insult to my intelligence. The five years box set is not for Bowie collectors. And the Pin-ups radio promo - please. I'm really sorry if I upset anyone that has forked out good money for what I consider very little.
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shooky
Posted: 30th Sep 2015, 7:55 am
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
David Bowie (aka Man Of Words, Man Of Music, aka Space Oddity)
while this is getting quite a bit of praise on the Hoffman board, i believe this edition to be too flawed to be considered "the best" regardless of any sonic benefits.
there are two significant errors to highlight first. at 01.24 on Cygnet Committee a weird digital artifact has appeared. at 1.08 on Memory Of A Free Festival the line "It's was God's land" has had a fraction of tape removed, altering the line to "It was God land" (a religious theme park?). i don't think anyone besides newbies and casual fans can really forgive these errors.
the source tape for the album is in poor shape, especially "side one". the EQ is generally very well done, although i think the compression pushes some points to distortion.
the condition of the title track also provides the answer to the question "where did the UK stereo single edit come from on Nothing Has Changed?" it's another newly created inauthentic edit, made from this full-length album master. there is distortion on the second bass note in the intro, not present on earlier masters. however, inherent noises prior to the vocal coming in appear to have been digitally edited out. there is tape damage evident throughout, examples include "This is ground control to major tom" after the take-off effects and "far above the moon" at 3.54. this track shows some minor peak limiting.
"Unwashed" and Letter To Hermione both sound pretty good but tape damage again is evident.
besides the error mentioned at the start of this post, Cygnet Committee also suffers from tape damage and the compression really emphasizes the noisy intro to this track.
Janine is fine but has some peak-limiting to the left channel.
An Occasional Dream seems to border on distortion here and there.
God Knows I'm Good has a couple of spots of tape damage.
besides the flaw noted earlier, Memory of A Free Festival also exhibits tape damage and has minor peak-limiting.
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ruud
Posted: 30th Sep 2015, 9:24 am
Site AdminPosts: 1209Location: UitgeestJoined: 27th Dec, 2006
The same weird digital artefact you mention for Cygnet Committee is also present at 3.58 in Space Odiity (at the end of "Far above the moon"), at least in the Spotify version of Five Years. I don't have the single disc version of Nothing Has Changed at hand to check if it's there as well.
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shooky
Posted: 30th Sep 2015, 10:37 am
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
good spot! don't think that one's been picked up on yet. and yes, it's on the 1 disc NHC too, and confirmed for the NHC vinyl also.
not on the 2 and 3 disc NHC which use a different master of the track (tweaked version of the SO40 IMO).
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shooky
Posted: 30th Sep 2015, 11:30 am
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
my favourite version of Hunky Dory is the German RCA disc. the Japan for US disc is too flawed to be a contender although some curiously still like it. it has a lot of audible tape damage on Changes and the whole of "side two" has been mastered very, very bright and loud.
so, these are my notes on Hunky Dory... Parlophone vs RCA Germany. in each case the Parlophone was loaded in first and the RCA adjusted for channel balance and/or volume level so comparisons were as fair as possible. these notes are as typed while listening. oddly people have commented on tape damage on the Parlophone which besides the early blip in Changes somehow evaded me during this comparison. i may have been focusing on other aspects of the sound too much and paying too much attention to waveforms and spectral views looking for anomalies. will give another listen without distractions and add info if necessary... until then...
Hunky Dory Parlophone 2015 vs RCA WG
Changes. RCA preferred. right channel levels consistent, RCA left channel level reduced to balance. Parlophone right channel peak limited. RCA has more bass, fuller sound, visible in waveform. Opening chords are spread wider on the Parlophone. Right channel tape damage at 0.20 on the Parlophone. "And my time was running wild" has had two clicks removed on the Parlophone. there is a click on the "t" at the end of "...was not so sweet" (0.36) removed on the Parlophone.
Oh You Pretty Things. RCA preferred. right channel levels consistent, RCA left channel level reduced a touch to balance. Very minor peak limiting applied to right channel of Parlophone (inaudible). RCA has more bass, fuller sound, very evident at choruses. "Look out at your children" has had a click removed on the Parlophone.
Eight Line Poem. A tie. RCA levels increased slightly to match Parlophone. virtually identical, the Parlophone potentially a clone of the WG.
Life On Mars? RCA preferred. RCA levels reduced to volume match. RCA more dynamic, but no peak limiting evident on the Parlophone. Parlophone removes a right channel noise in the opening note and the click on "fuck it" at the very end (as did Ryko and EMI previously)
Kooks. close but RCA preferred. RCA right channel level increased to balance. "A funny old crib on which the paint won't dry" has had a click removed on the Parlophone. "You're gonna be pretty kooky too" has had a click removed on the Parlophone.
Quicksand. close but RCA preferred. right channel levels consistent, RCA left channel level reduced to balance. Parlophone right channel peak limited. "I'm the twisted name on Garbo's eyes" has had a click removed on the Parlophone. "Where others see their target" has had two clicks removed on the Parlophone.
Fill Your Heart. RCA preferred. RCA levels reduced and balanced to volume match. RCA more prominent percussion and fuller bass.
Andy Warhol. RCA preferred. RCA levels increased to volume match. Parlophone sounds thin in comparison to RCA. clapping at end is more centred on the Parlophone.
Song For Bob Dylan. A tie. RCA levels reduced to volume match.
Queen Bitch. RCA preferred. RCA levels reduced to volume match. RCA has more prominent percussion. cymbals may be too splashy for some. Parlophone has minimal peak limiting.
The Bewlay Brothers. A tie. no level matching or balancing required. virtually identical, the Parlophone has a more prominent right channel in the coda. Parlophone has minimal peak limiting to right channel.
as with any such comparison, listening equipment and environment will play their part. nothing here is set in stone and it's just one geek's opinion. if you prefer the parlophone, the ryko, the emi or the taiwanese pirate lp, all power to you.
Last edited by shooky on 2nd Feb 2016, 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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shooky
Posted: 30th Sep 2015, 11:45 am
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
this is the waveform of Eight Line Poem (Parlophone left). not identical but very, very close.
and the spectral view. personally i find it hard to believe these haven't come from the identical source. everything from the peaks at all frequencies, to the blackness of the background. (black represents silence. the brighter the colour, the louder/brighter the sound).
NB: image links no longer work, nor to newly created ones. would delete the entry but that's not an available option.
Last edited by shooky on 13th May 2017, 7:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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shooky
Posted: 30th Sep 2015, 2:14 pm
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
ruud wrote:
Matt, for All The Madmen and Holy Holy you rightly note that they do not match the original singles. To the defense of Ray Staff I would add that if these would have been included in their original form they would have sounded pretty "off" and not have mixed well with the rest. They were bass heavy, a bit muddy and probably EQed for AM? For me an All The Madmen without the wow was new BTW; all copies I heard were pressed off centre.
while i agree that compilations work best when they have a consistent sound, i think in this instance historical accuracy is more important. digital debuts 40+ years after release is a big enough event to warrant the research. a shame some of these tracks are so "off" in that respect.
actually Holy Holy compares pretty well with my needledrop, perhaps they brightened it as it is a fairly lifeless performance/recording. for All The Madmen i don't have an original only a needledrop of unknown origin. but i do have the US album to go by and other Mercury singles, and they all tend to err on the bass-heavy side. i think the generally ropey sound of Janine here suggests the pair were needledrops that were EQd with little regard for the original sound... but unless i ever have my hands on one this is pure speculation. US singles have a large centre. it would only take a little patience to get it centred before transferring. that would make more sense than relying on digital auto-tune etc.
i'm underwhelmed by this set but may have to get the vinyl to satisfy my curiosity... i'd expect to see some upsampled tracks on the Re:Call collection. not much here appears to be hi-res.
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shooky
Posted: 1st Oct 2015, 3:56 am
Posts: 2910Location: takasaki, japanJoined: 28th May, 2008
there were less differences and less to say about The Man Who Sold The World. this time i loaded in the generally preferred JPN for US RCA disc first, then the WG RCA and then the Parlophone. as before, my preferences only. while i don't think it's perfect i like the WG RCA for this title, but for many it's too "rolled off in the highs". i expect the Parlophone will be preferred by most as it generally sits between the two RCAs.
RCA JPN for US vs RCA WG vs Parlophone.
1. Width Of A Circle.RCA WG preferred but this is a tie. right channel of RCA WG level raised to balance with others. RCA JPN for US is the brightest, Parlophone has the most bass, RCA WG sits somewhere between.
2. All The Madmen.RCA WG for the smoother presentation, RCA JPN for US for the dynamic second half. RCA JPN for US the most dynamic in the latter half. Parlophone a bit "glare-y" in the louder vocal lines and the last third where it sounds quite harsh compared to the RCAs. Parlophone removes a noise prior to and a click on the "Where" on "Where can the horizon lie".
3. Black Country Rock.RCA JPN for US preferred, RCA WG perhaps too smooth on this? Parlophone close. RCAs required some channel balancing to match the Parlophone, the latter is loudest but no limiting. RCA JPN for US the most detailed due to more top end. RCA WG midrange sounds recessed in comparison. Parlophone has more prominent mids but tames the highs some. Waveform of RCA JPN for US and Parlophone very similar.
4. After All. Parlophone preferred. right channel of RCA WG level raised to balance with others. RCA JPN for US and Parlophone waveforms very close, the Parlophone tames the top end. RCA WG sounds veiled in comparison with the others.
4. Running Gun Blues.RCA WG preferred. left channel of RCA WG level dropped to balance with others. RCA JPN for US and Parlophone waveforms very close, the Parlophone tames the top end.
5. Saviour Machine.RCA WG preferred. Parlophone has minor peak limiting (inaudible). RCA JPN for US comes in a bit sudden, the others fade in more smoothly. Parlophone a bit dull here, the vocals don't cut through as well as the RCAs.
6. She Shook Me Cold.RCA WG preferred but this is a tie. left channel of RCA WG level dropped to balance with others. RCA JPN for US and Parlophone waveforms very close, the Parlophone tames the top end, perhaps too much.
7. The Man Who Sold The World.RCA WG preferred but this is a tie. very little difference between the three. RCA JPN for US more top, WG better separaration and smoother.
8. The Supermen.RCA WG preferred. RCA WG a clear winner for me here. a tie between the other two.
nb: if i were to listen to only one version of TMWSTW it would be the 1972 Japanese vinyl. i don't know what magic they sprinkled on the tape that day but it worked.
